Religious, or religion... that's the question

[Dogbreath]

I've asked this in like every post but you seem to be avoiding it: If you believe that Jesus is God and that Jesus died, then you also believe that God is dead.

Luke 24

On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " Then they remembered his words.

When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

On the Road to Emmaus

Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.

He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?"
They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"

"What things?" he asked.

"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."

He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them.

When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"

They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.

Death is only physical. Which brings me to another question: if muslims beleive that Jesus didn't really die (that his body was replaced with that of another on the cross), then how do they explain the resurrection?

[emmzee]

When you said earlier that Jesus said to a man "your sins are forgiven", it in no way implies that Jesus himself forgave him his sins.

As I quoted in my last post above, the religious leaders of the time thought quite differently than you do. Their reaction was as follows: "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7) This would be a great time for Jesus to clear things up; to say "Hey, wait a minute guys, I may be pretty great but I'm not God." But Jesus instead works a miracle instead and attributes the miracle to himself!

Unless Jesus clearly stated that he is God, that doesn't make him a liar.
All those quotes you gave don't state his divinity implicitly.

Implicitly: "Implied or understood though not directly expressed"

All of the quotes/situations I described in my last message implicitly make claims to Jesus' divinity.

Also, please tell me how you can believe that God is almighty, yet got crucified by his own creations and 'sacrificed' himself for us.

It's inaccurate to think that while Jesus was on earth, God somehow left the heavens. God is indeed almighty; He can do whatever he chooses, like create people, or remove them from the world. If He decided to come to earth himself, to teach us, show us the way to live ... who are we to say to God "You shouldn't do that"? If God is almighty, why couldn't he do so?

I mean, is there anything in the bible that states CLEARLY that Jesus IS God?

I really hate just saying "see quotes above". So here's one more example:

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Like the "forgiving sins" situation above, here's another opportunity for Jesus to say "Woah Thomas, you've got it all wrong. I may be a lord of sorts, but I'm certainly not your God!" But he says nothing of the sort, again implicitly stating his divinity.

Jesus told many parables, and told them for a reason, to communicate truths in a way anyone can understand. A modern parable that I found helpful when I was studying Christianity in my agnostic days is quoted here, as told by Paul Harvey:

Paul Harvey tells about the farmer who heard irregular thumping sounds against his kitchen storm door. He went over and watched as tiny sparrows beat in vain against the glass in an attempt to get to the warmth inside. The farmer bundled up and plodded through the fresh snow to get to the barn door and open it for the freezing birds. He switched on the light and threw some hay into a corner for them. But the sparrows hid in the darkness. The man tried various schemes to get the birds into the barn, but nothing worked. They could not comprehend that he was trying to help them. Finally, the farmer returned to his house and watched the doomed sparrows with deep sorrow. He thought to himself, "If only I could become a bird — one of them — just for a moment. Then I wouldn't frighten them so. I could show them the way to warmth and safety." At that moment he also grasped the reason Jesus was born.

And why would God sacrifice himself for humanity, when the majority of humans are going to hell?

If you think the majority of humans are going to hell, that's up to you. I don't. It's not up to us to say who's going where. Christians believe that by faith in Christ we are saved; but that doesn't mean we can tell who is saved and who isn't, since "You are masters at making yourselves look good in front of others, but God knows what's behind the appearance." (Jesus, Luke 16:15, The Message translation)

Also, if he is God, then how come he was born? Why didn't he just vaporize the romans?

Because as stated earlier Jesus is believed by Christians to be fully God and fully human. Before you ask, no, I don't know exactly how that works, because any attempt to fully understand who God is or what God does is doomed to failure. Like it or not we are all limited, especially compared to the God who made the entire universe.

I've asked this in like every post but you seem to be avoiding it: If you believe that Jesus is God and that Jesus died, then you also believe that God is dead.

I looked over your last three posts, but didn't see this question being asked. If you are going to ask something, you must state it explicitly, not implicitly! Anyways, I don't believe that God is dead. As DB stated in his post, God does not "die". No Christians (and I don't think that any other religions that I know of) believe that God is dead so that's really a straw man argument. (Your post did bring to mind the NIN song "Heresy" though, haven't heard THAT one for awhile heh.)

I've answered many, many questions in this thread, and asked only one, yet it has so far gone unanswered. I was wondering if you'd be willing to let us know what your beliefs are? If you don't feel comfortable sharing I understand of course.

[Amro]

Death is only physical. Which brings me to another question: if muslims beleive that Jesus didn't really die (that his body was replaced with that of another on the cross), then how do they explain the resurrection?

What resurrection? If it has to do with Jesus not dying, there wouldn't be any resurrection because he didn't die in the first place.

I looked over your last three posts, but didn't see this question being asked. If you are going to ask something, you must state it explicitly, not implicitly! Anyways, I don't believe that God is dead. As DB stated in his post, God does not "die". No Christians (and I don't think that any other religions that I know of) believe that God is dead so that's really a straw man argument. (Your post did bring to mind the NIN song "Heresy" though, haven't heard THAT one for awhile heh.)

I know perfectly well that God doesn't die and I know perfectly well that you don't believe that He is dead. You're not getting my point. God is immortal, thus, he cannot be 'born' and 'grow' like a normal human being. God cannot be fully something He created, it just doesn't make sense that part of God is something that He created... What was He before creating Adam?

Paul Harvey tells about the farmer who heard irregular thumping sounds against his kitchen storm door. He went over and watched as tiny sparrows beat in vain against the glass in an attempt to get to the warmth inside. The farmer bundled up and plodded through the fresh snow to get to the barn door and open it for the freezing birds. He switched on the light and threw some hay into a corner for them. But the sparrows hid in the darkness. The man tried various schemes to get the birds into the barn, but nothing worked. They could not comprehend that he was trying to help them. Finally, the farmer returned to his house and watched the doomed sparrows with deep sorrow. He thought to himself, "If only I could become a bird — one of them — just for a moment. Then I wouldn't frighten them so. I could show them the way to warmth and safety." At that moment he also grasped the reason Jesus was born.

Do you really believe God is incapable of understanding us or making us understand without being 'one' of us? You can't apply that example simply because the farmer didn't create those birds.

Those Messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus, the son of Mary, we gave Clear Signs, and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after Clear Signs had come to them but they chose to wrangle, some believing and others disbelieving. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah does as He pleases.

Verse 253, Surah of the Cow

In other words, God isn't a failure because Jesus's followers went off-path or were wrong (as you said earlier).

Oh, and, on the 'God-Man' stuff... Personally, I find it easier to believe in a God-God rather than a God-Man (what is this, greek mythology?).

If you think the majority of humans are going to hell, that's up to you. I don't. It's not up to us to say who's going where.

You're right, we can't tell, but you're not telling me some people aren't guaranteed a seat next to satan. Look at the world today... How many have any faith at all?

I've answered many, many questions in this thread, and asked only one, yet it has so far gone unanswered. I was wondering if you'd be willing to let us know what your beliefs are? If you don't feel comfortable sharing I understand of course.

Sorry emmzee, I didn't notice your question. I'm not sure what it is exactly that you're asking about... If you could ask about a precise thing, I'd be more than happy to answer. If you want to learn about Islam in general, best to go to a mosque if there's one around. Make sure it's a Sunni mosque, not a shiite (cuz a shiite might offer you a suicide bombing mission). Seriously, be careful, and verify what they tell you elsewhere.

[emmzee]

I know perfectly well that God doesn't die and I know perfectly well that you don't believe that He is dead. You're not getting my point. God is immortal, thus, he cannot be 'born' and 'grow' like a normal human being. God cannot be fully something He created, it just doesn't make sense that part of God is something that He created... What was He before creating Adam?

The problem here is, again, that when trying to describe or understand God, our understanding of Him is going to be pretty limited. How, exactly, did God come to earth in human form? Well we're never going to fully understand that. Maybe its something like this: Jesus has always existed in some way (he is co-eternal with God, see for example John 8:58) but God only chose to reveal that part of himself to us at a specific time in history, through a human body.

I have to go back to Jesus' divinity again, because its an important topic. If the NT is accurate, then Jesus is claimed to be:

- Called "God" using the word God: Philippians 2:6 ("Who, being in very nature God..."), John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20
- Called "Lord" (Greek 'kyrios') meaning God (the same word that God is often called in the OT is applied to Jesus): 1 Corinthians 12:3, Philippians 2:11, many others
- Eternally preexistent: John 1:1, John 8:58
- Omnipotent: Matthew 28:18
- Sinless, perfect: 1 John 3:5, 2 Peter 2:22, John 8:46
- Rightly worshipped: Matthew 2:11, John 9:38, Matthew 14:33, Philippians 2:10-11
- Has authority over the sabbath: Matthew 12:8
- Forgiving of sin: Mark 2:5-7
- Able to save people from their sins: Matthew 1:21
- Able to give people eternal life: John 10:28-30
(There's plenty more that I didn't type out for the sake of brevity. See http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/je ... mshub.html for some more references.)

If *I* claimed any of the things listed above, I'd be claiming divinity. For example, who can forgive sins but God alone? I can forgive Bob for sinning against me. But what if Joe comes along and says "Don't worry Bob. I forgive you for your sins against Darren." Um, what the? The only one who could do that would be God.

There's plenty of implicit references that I haven't even listed (and probably lots that I don't even know about and/or can't find ATM). Example: Jesus' relationship to his twelve disciples; the twelve represent the twelve tribes of Israel. Well Jesus is the one who brought them together and lords over them, but he is not one of the twelve, so how would he have thought of himself?

So IMHO there's no way that someone could say that Jesus' divinity is in question based on the NT scriptures. The only way to get out of Jesus being a divine figure is to say that the NT is corrupt, which is a whole other argument of course

Do you really believe God is incapable of understanding us or making us understand without being 'one' of us? You can't apply that example simply because the farmer didn't create those birds.

It's a parable, meant to teach truths about God without every particular detail being exact. That's the nature of the parable; don't miss the forest for the trees here. God is of course capable of understanding us. The fact that the farmer didn't create the birds is not important to the message of the parable.

Those Messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus, the son of Mary, we gave Clear Signs, and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after Clear Signs had come to them but they chose to wrangle, some believing and others disbelieving. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah does as He pleases.
Verse 253, Surah of the Cow

In other words, God isn't a failure because Jesus's followers went off-path or were wrong (as you said earlier).

I have a few questions about the above verse ... since I don't know much about the Koran, please be patient with me here

Where the passage reads "we gave Clear Signs", and "We endowed with gifts", who is "we"? I assume that this is Mohammed speaking, if so why doesn't it say "He" or "Allah"?

I'm also wondering about where it says "to one of them [the prophets?] Allah spoke". In the OT, God spoke to all of the prophets, and also to Moses, Samuel, etc. Is Mohammed claiming that all/most of the OT is wrong?

Also, I'm not sure that this passage invalidates my point earlier. The Koran says that Jesus was a great prophet (and so is also implied in this passage above). If Jesus was a great prophet, he must have been a great teacher, for that's what a prophet does. How can someone be called a great teacher if no one who hears them comprehends their teaching?

Oh, and, on the 'God-Man' stuff... Personally, I find it easier to believe in a God-God rather than a God-Man (what is this, greek mythology?).

Frankly, I sometimes find it "easier" to believe there's no God at all. (Especially when I'm tempted to do something God wouldn't approve of!) What's easy is not necessarily correct. Which is preferable: A God who sits (metaphorically of course) above in Heaven and rains down judgements and commandments on us, or a God who comes to earth in the form of a human like the rest of us to teach us personally and SHOW us the way to live?

Saying that Jesus is God-Man is merely our way of understanding Him, in the same way that the Trinity is our way of understanding the ways that God has revealed himself to us.

You're right, we can't tell, but you're not telling me some people aren't guaranteed a seat next to satan. Look at the world today... How many have any faith at all?

Agreed

Sorry emmzee, I didn't notice your question. I'm not sure what it is exactly that you're asking about... If you could ask about a precise thing, I'd be more than happy to answer.

Okay great! Christians believe that we are saved by faith in Christ. (Good works are important of course but follow naturally from being saved and are not a requirement for salvation.) As far as I know, the concept of grace is unique to the Christian faith. Therefore I'm curious as to what Muslims must do in order to be saved?

If you want to learn about Islam in general, best to go to a mosque if there's one around. Make sure it's a Sunni mosque, not a shiite (cuz a shiite might offer you a suicide bombing mission). Seriously, be careful, and verify what they tell you elsewhere.

There are schizms even in Islam it seems, so Christianity is not alone in this regard

Ah this is a rather long post. I didn't intend it to get this long, but hopefully its still worth reading, despite its length.

[Amro]

The problem here is, again, that when trying to describe or understand God, our understanding of Him is going to be pretty limited. How, exactly, did God come to earth in human form? Well we're never going to fully understand that. Maybe its something like this: Jesus has always existed in some way (he is co-eternal with God, see for example John 8:58) but God only chose to reveal that part of himself to us at a specific time in history, through a human body.

I don't see the necessity for it (God showing Himself in human form). First of all, something about it would be in the jewish faith, and second of all, God CAN save us without showing himself as 'one' of us (Judaism and Islam are proof )

I have a few questions about the above verse ... since I don't know much about the Koran, please be patient with me here

Where the passage reads "we gave Clear Signs", and "We endowed with gifts", who is "we"? I assume that this is Mohammed speaking, if so why doesn't it say "He" or "Allah"?

I'm also wondering about where it says "to one of them [the prophets?] Allah spoke". In the OT, God spoke to all of the prophets, and also to Moses, Samuel, etc. Is Mohammed claiming that all/most of the OT is wrong?

Also, I'm not sure that this passage invalidates my point earlier. The Koran says that Jesus was a great prophet (and so is also implied in this passage above). If Jesus was a great prophet, he must have been a great teacher, for that's what a prophet does. How can someone be called a great teacher if no one who hears them comprehends their teaching?

It looks like I have to explain how God 'spoke' to Mohammed. Well, He didn't, He sent everything in the Koran through Gabriel. So Mohammed is saying exactly what Gabriel told him, which is exactly what God told him. The Koran is literally the word of God. So 'We' is a reference to God, and many times throughout the Koran, you also see Allah or Your Lord, which also references to God. That's what makes the Koran unique; disbelievers at the time accused Mohammed of practicing witchcraft or something because they just couldn't see how a 'normal' person would make up such 'unique' texts. It doesn't fall under any 'type' of literature. When Mohammed was asked for miracles, he said that the Koran is his miracle. The 'miracle' is lost in translation; if you read the original text you'll see what I mean.

Ok, I've been told that God spoke only to one prophet (Moses). I got the translation from some software (I didn't do it myself) but the original says "to some of them". I'm not sure.

Some people hear, comprehend, ignore, then cause corruption, as the above verse states. Indeed, the 'later' generations fought between themselves... After Jesus.

Okay great! Christians believe that we are saved by faith in Christ. (Good works are important of course but follow naturally from being saved and are not a requirement for salvation.) As far as I know, the concept of grace is unique to the Christian faith. Therefore I'm curious as to what Muslims must do in order to be saved?

All you have to do is believe and obey God. (Well, that sums up every other religion too ) There are pillars to Islam (I probably got the order messed up):

1. Belief that there is only one God, and that Mohammed is indeed one of His prophets
2. Charity
3. Fasting (how ironic, ramadhan started friday)
4. Prayer
5. Pelgrimage to Mecca to those who can afford it physically and economically.

Except the first, all the pillars are subject to conditions. For example, you don't have to fast if you're really old or just a kid (or sick).

Here is a part of Hadith (it's really long) which might clarify some things:

Someone came to the prophet and asked him...

...
Q: I want to be the fairest of people.
A: Want for them what you want for yourself, and you will be the fairest of them.
Q: I want to be the best of people.
A: Be useful to people, and you will be the best of them.
...
Q: I want to be the most special person to God
A: Invoke God's name a lot, and you will be the most special person to Him
Q: I want my faith to be complete
A: Improve your manners, and your faith will be complete.
Q: I want God to have mercy on me on the Last Day.
A: Have mercy on yourself and God's creatures, and God will have mercy on you on the Last Day.
Q: I want my sins to lessen.
A: Ask for forgiveness a lot, and your sins will lessen.
...
Q: I want to be safe from God's wrath on the last day
A: Don't be angry at any of God's creatures, and you will be safe from God's wrath on the Last Day.
...
Q: What (good) deed is greatest to God?
A: Good manners and patience.
Q: What sin is greatest (most offending) to God?
A: Bad manners and selfish egoism (like really really selfish, so selfish you don't get things for yourself... I can't find the word in english)
...
Q: What extinguishes hell's fire on the Last Day?
A: Patience in life on catastrophes.

This is considered the most useful hadith, I don't have the time to type it all. As you can see, patience is important... And God is forgiving, in fact, The Forgiving and The Merciful. All it takes is to (seriously) ask for forgiveness, and your sins are gone . Doesn't mean you can abuse it (sin, atone, sin, atone, sin, atone), read below.

It doesn't matter what you physically do it matters what's in your heart and mind because God knows what's in there.

And one more thing: The first piece of the Koran that Gabriel told Mohammed was 'Read'. Science/knowledge (synonymous in arabic) are also at the heart of the faith, as is work.

[emmzee]

Hi, sorry for the long lag time between replies!

I don't see the necessity for it (God showing Himself in human form). First of all, something about it would be in the jewish faith, and second of all, God CAN save us without showing himself as 'one' of us (Judaism and Islam are proof )

I'd say there's plenty about it in the Jewish faith:

- The Messiah (literally "the anointed", the predicted savior of the Jews) is not only a central theme to the OT, the messiah is often presented as being God (ex. Isaiah 9:6: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.) Jesus himself mentions this fact in Matthew 22:41-46 and confounds the religious leaders of his time!

- More generally, the OT constantly talks about the one who would come to save people, ex. Malachi 3:1: "Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. Then the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger of the covenant, whom you look for so eagerly, is surely coming," says the LORD Almighty. (The messenger in this case would be John the Baptist, Luke 1:13-17, while Jesus would be the Lord.)

- God is sometimes referred to in plural form in the OT. One example: The first book of the Bible, Genesis, records God creating people: Then God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves." (Genesis 1:26)

There's plenty of other prophecy, but I am not very well versed in OT prophecy, so those are the ones that I could come up with off the top of my head. I could always provide links to more if necessary.

It looks like I have to explain how God 'spoke' to Mohammed. Well, He didn't, He sent everything in the Koran through Gabriel. So Mohammed is saying exactly what Gabriel told him, which is exactly what God told him. The Koran is literally the word of God. So 'We' is a reference to God, and many times throughout the Koran, you also see Allah or Your Lord, which also references to God. That's what makes the Koran unique; disbelievers at the time accused Mohammed of practicing witchcraft or something because they just couldn't see how a 'normal' person would make up such 'unique' texts. It doesn't fall under any 'type' of literature. When Mohammed was asked for miracles, he said that the Koran is his miracle. The 'miracle' is lost in translation; if you read the original text you'll see what I mean.

Ah yes, thank you for this explanation, I remember reading about how Mohammed received his messages from an angel, I had just forgotten about that.

Ok, I've been told that God spoke only to one prophet (Moses). I got the translation from some software (I didn't do it myself) but the original says "to some of them". I'm not sure.

I looked up two Englished translations that I could find on the web and one of them did say "to some of them". For the record, Christians believe that God spoke to them, literally by Jesus, and later through the Holy Spirit.

Some people hear, comprehend, ignore, then cause corruption, as the above verse states. Indeed, the 'later' generations fought between themselves... After Jesus.

It is, in my opinion, extremely unlikely that later corruptions occured. I wrote a long piece explaining why a few days ago, but never actually posted it. It's rather long (well only 2 pages in MSWord but too long to just cut and paste here) so I saved it as a PDF and uploaded it here:

http://www.emmzee.com/Jesus%20Divine.pdf

Q: I want to be the fairest of people.
A: Want for them what you want for yourself, and you will be the fairest of them.

Well at least we have this in common with most religious faiths
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Jesus, Matthew 7:12
The only difference I can see is "want"ing, versus "do"ing.

Q: I want to be the most special person to God
A: Invoke God's name a lot, and you will be the most special person to Him

This is different from what's taught in the NT ...

"When you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." Jesus, Matthew 6:7

Was going to comment on the others but didn't want to make this post super long

At least now I have an idea about the content of the Hadith. Is the Hadith considered sort of a secondary reference, kind of like a commentary on the Bible?

And one more thing: The first piece of the Koran that Gabriel told Mohammed was 'Read'. Science/knowledge (synonymous in arabic) are also at the heart of the faith, as is work.

My 2nd question re the Koran: Is it believed by Muslims that the Koran is uncreated? I have read conflicting things about this, but my general understanding at this point is (probably confused) that the message of the Koran is eternal, but its form is temporal.

[Amro]

- God is sometimes referred to in plural form in the OT. One example: The first book of the Bible, Genesis, records God creating people: Then God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves." (Genesis 1:26)

And in many other places, God is referred to in plural form, including the Koran. Remember that 'We' and 'Us', in many languages, are used for someone who is in a position of power or who is to be respected. For example, in French you use 'Vous' instead of 'Tu' with strangers to be polite.

Hadith wrote:
Q: I want to be the most special person to God
A: Invoke God's name a lot, and you will be the most special person to Him


This is different from what's taught in the NT ...

I guess I didn't translate it well enough... It doesn't mean you should spend 24/7 worshipping God, it means you should invoke his name before you do stuff (like eating).

At least now I have an idea about the content of the Hadith. Is the Hadith considered sort of a secondary reference, kind of like a commentary on the Bible?

Not really... It's Mohammed's words, and, having been enlightened by God, his words are true enough... Also, in the Koran, it says we should follow him. Note that, as I said earlier, hadiths vary in reliability. When you're looking for something, you first look in the Koran and then in the Hadith (because you'll eventually find a directive to go there).

1) Jesus was crazy: Maybe Jesus did claim to be divine, but he was insane.

The least likely. Doesn't explain the miracles, unless he was a crazy God-blessed sorcerer.

2) Jesus' followers misunderstood: Maybe Jesus never claimed to be divine, but his
followers misunderstood him.

Yup, this is what I think. I mean if Jesus's followers suspected he was God, SOMEONE would have been like "Hey Jesus, you wouldn't happen to be God, would you?" And then somewhere in the bible you'd have some answer like "Yes, I am God". For that reason it seems likely that people 'misunderstood' after Jesus's death because he was no longer around to be asked. Moreover, God is immortal, so it doesn't make sense for Him to die even if there would be a 'resurrection' afterwards.

3) Jesus' followers made it up: Maybe Jesus' followers just made up parts to make it
seem like Jesus is divine.
This seems to be the best and most likely theory … it seems reasonable until you really
analyze what this would mean.

It seems very unlikely to me that Jesus's FOLLOWERS would change it... Remember, if they KNEW he wasn't God, why would they say he is?

Additionally, there is little debate that a crucifixion was held for Jesus. The New
Testament says that Jesus died and was resurrected; the Koran states that the resemblance
of Jesus was put upon another man (Koran 4:157).

Which reminds me: If Jesus's followers believed he was God (and from what you say, it seems it was obvious at the time that he was) then how come some jackass stabbed him in the back? It doesn't make sense for someone to betray God, especially after He has said it. Also, there would be some explicit claims to Jesus's divinity... If you were one of his disciples or just a follower at the time and heard him say those things, would you unquestioningly believe that he is God? At least, you would ASK WHY he's saying that stuff to be sure. Oh and, btw, the notation looks weird on the Koran... you actually put the verse # and the Surah's name because not many people have the order memorized. I remember once seeing a verse noted that way... I looked it up both ways but couldn't find it, it was actually in a very different spot.

However, the importance here is that
both are in agreement that for some reason many prominent Jewish people wanted to
crucify Jesus. Under normal circumstances, why would they want to kill one of their own
people? Jesus was not a political revolutionary (ex Matthew 22:15-22). He must have
been crucified for His teaching, but without Jesus’ claims to divinity there seems to be
little that would make first century Jews accuse him of such blasphemy that they would
want him killed.

Actually, it makes perfect sense for 1st centurey Jews to want Jesus killed. I mean, he was contradicting their beliefs. I'll give you a perfect example: In medieval times or whenever it was (I think is was around 1200) the church burned and tortured thousands of so-called 'heretics' (protestants, Knights Templars). The jews wanted him killed for the same reason the church killed all those people.

Finally, the question comes to mind: If an organized conspiracy of people made up a
bunch of stories about Jesus, why didn’t they make greater statements to his divinity?
While Jesus’ divinity is obvious from studying the NT, why not have Jesus boldly
stepping into Jerusalem, claiming “I AM God! Worship me, or pay the ultimate price!”.

I don't know enough history to be qualified to discuss this, but I'd say it would be because it would seem too 'obvious' that it's 'fake'. You know what I mean?

My 2nd question re the Koran: Is it believed by Muslims that the Koran is uncreated? I have read conflicting things about this, but my general understanding at this point is (probably confused) that the message of the Koran is eternal, but its form is temporal.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said

Was going to comment on the others but didn't want to make this post super long

This subject is worthy of super-long posts

Oh by the way, I hope you don't mind me arguing your beliefs! If you're uncomfortable tell me to shut up.

[emmzee]

And in many other places, God is referred to in plural form, including the Koran. Remember that 'We' and 'Us', in many languages, are used for someone who is in a position of power or who is to be respected. For example, in French you use 'Vous' instead of 'Tu' with strangers to be polite.

If that were the case, I would think that God would have been always referred to using plural forms, since Jews always tried to be as respectful as possible when referencing God ... I agree that the polite plural is at least a possiblity tho.

Not really... It's Mohammed's words, and, having been enlightened by God, his words are true enough... Also, in the Koran, it says we should follow him. Note that, as I said earlier, hadiths vary in reliability. When you're looking for something, you first look in the Koran and then in the Hadith (because you'll eventually find a directive to go there).

I'm still not sure I understand how the Hadith is different than a Bible commentary. If the Hadith is even sometimes unreliable, then it cannot be considered a sacred scripture, and the Hadiths are no more important than, say the writings of the early church fathers in Christianity.

2) Jesus' followers misunderstood: Maybe Jesus never claimed to be divine, but his followers misunderstood him.

Yup, this is what I think. I mean if Jesus's followers suspected he was God, SOMEONE would have been like "Hey Jesus, you wouldn't happen to be God, would you?" And then somewhere in the bible you'd have some answer like "Yes, I am God". For that reason it seems likely that people 'misunderstood' after Jesus's death because he was no longer around to be asked. Moreover, God is immortal, so it doesn't make sense for Him to die even if there would be a 'resurrection' afterwards.

This theory (that Jesus was misunderstood by his apostles) is not true for the following reasons:

As I have pointed out in this thread, by Jesus' own statements and actions we are forced to conclude that he considered himself to be divine. He never said that He is God? Consider Matthew 26:63-65:
Then the Chief Priest said, "I command you by the authority of the living God to say if you are the Messiah, the Son of God." Jesus was curt: "You yourself said it. And that's not all. Soon you'll see it for yourself.
This is recounted in all four gospels. He often referred to himself as "I AM", claiming to be God. See Exodus 3:15-16:
Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Also, Jews at the time Jesus was preaching had a limited idea of God. If God is truly infinite, truly so great as to be beyond our understanding, why limit Him to a voice booming from the sky? The Jews at the time did just that, and thus announcing "Hey eveyone, I'm God!" would have sounded like "Hey everyone, I'm Yahweh!" which wouldn't have made sense to them. He preferred to reveal His identity to them by his teachings and deeds!

Only if Jesus is divine does his sacrificial death make sense. You have probably already heard it before, but CS Lewis' famous quote on the issue is relevant here:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon, or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come away with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Since Jesus claims in his own words the New Testament to be divine the apostles couldn't have simply misunderstood him. They would have had to fabricate not only sayings, but deeds that Jesus performed. That means that the "they just misunderstood" theory is seriously flawed, and in my opinion does not make sense, especially when you consider that these apostles spent years following Jesus and spent every day with him. The "they misunderstood" theory is indefensible IMHO.

It seems very unlikely to me that Jesus's FOLLOWERS would change it... Remember, if they KNEW he wasn't God, why would they say he is?

Very good point. In the mid 1st century, Christians were despised from all sides: Jews disliked them because they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah; Romans disliked them because they did not worship the idols of Rome. Early Christians (including the disciples) had no clear motivation for lying, since all that awaited them by fabricating lies was persecution and death, and they had no political or power aspirations, unlike the leaders of many other religious movements.

Which reminds me: If Jesus's followers believed he was God (and from what you say, it seems it was obvious at the time that he was) then how come some jackass stabbed him in the back? It doesn't make sense for someone to betray God, especially after He has said it.

This just goes to show I guess that some people simply refuse to believe! After he had done the deed, Judas seemed to show great remorse, perhaps because he realized what he had done. It's important to realize too that the disciples themselves probably didn't totally understand Jesus until after the resurrection. (This is my opinion, I do not recall reading this opinion mentioned elsewhere, but it makes sense to me.) Consider John 12:16: At first, Jesus' disciples did not understand. But after he had been given his glory, they remembered all this. Everything had happened exactly as the Scriptures said it would. Remember that the Jews of the time had not only a limited idea of what God could be like, but also had built up specific (yet distorted) views about what the Messiah would be like ... but Jesus refused to be conformed to their narrow expectations.

Also, there would be some explicit claims to Jesus's divinity... If you were one of his disciples or just a follower at the time and heard him say those things, would you unquestioningly believe that he is God? At least, you would ASK WHY he's saying that stuff to be sure.

Something else to keep in mind ... the gospels are not the earliest written books of the New Testament. Paul's letters are the earliest, and they make very strong claims about Jesus' divinity (none of which have been touched upon yet, since I've always been sticking to the gospels).

Oh and, btw, the notation looks weird on the Koran... you actually put the verse # and the Surah's name because not many people have the order memorized. I remember once seeing a verse noted that way... I looked it up both ways but couldn't find it, it was actually in a very different spot.

Sorry about that, I looked up the verses using this site I found, http://www.thenoblequran.com ... which allows looking up passages by number, when searching the web I sometimes saw quotes using #'s so I figured it was okay. Also, I thought the Koran was ordered longest to shortest?

Actually, it makes perfect sense for 1st centurey Jews to want Jesus killed. I mean, he was contradicting their beliefs.

Yup, it's certainly true that the religious leaders would have personal motivations. However, the only commentary as to why Jesus was killed is found in the Bible. (Other external sources confirm that Jesus was killed by crucifixion but do not specify exactly why he was killed afaik.) The story found in <a href="">Matthew 26:62-66</a> as well as all the other Gospels. No other tradition exists as to why Jesus was crucified.

I don't know enough history to be qualified to discuss this, but I'd say it would be because it would seem too 'obvious' that it's 'fake'. You know what I mean?

I do, but generally speaking when considering made up charges, they tend to be outlandish rather than somber. According to what I've read, the genre of historical fiction (which the gospels/acts would be if they are not true) was never used until 100's of years later.

My 2nd question re the Koran: Is it believed by Muslims that the Koran is uncreated? I have read conflicting things about this, but my general understanding at this point is (probably confused) that the message of the Koran is eternal, but its form is temporal.
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just said

I may not be explaining the issue properly, because I lack the correct theological terminology to express it ... I read this sort of thing in many places, but I found it stated at the top of the Wikipedia article on the Qur'an:

The most widespread varieties of Muslim theology consider the Qur'an to be eternal and 'uncreated'. In this it was influenced by Greek philosophy, especially Plato's theories that all ultimate realities and truths had to be eternal and unchanging. Given that Muslims believe that Biblical figures such as Moses and Jesus all preached Islam, the doctrine of an unchanging, uncreated revelation implies that contradictions between their statements according to the Qur'an and the Bible must be the result of human corruption of the earlier divine revelations. (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran">Full article</a>)

Oh by the way, I hope you don't mind me arguing your beliefs! If you're uncomfortable tell me to shut up.

No it's cool, I enjoy discussing this stuff Especially learning about other faiths, I have read a lot about Mormonism but not much about Islam

[Amro]

I'm still not sure I understand how the Hadith is different than a Bible commentary. If the Hadith is even sometimes unreliable, then it cannot be considered a sacred scripture, and the Hadiths are no more important than, say the writings of the early church fathers in Christianity.

Look at the Hadith above... does it look like a commentary? It's almost like a story - a conversation. It's Mohammed's teachings, what he said to us. I don't see why the writings of early church fathers would be anywhere near as important - what Jesus himself said is more important.

This theory (that Jesus was misunderstood by his apostles) is not true for the following reasons:

When you use religion as proof for something, you don't talk about it as fact. I could, right now, bring quotes from the Koran that contradict the above ones. However, I won't because it won't have much of an effect: you don't believe in the Koran.

Soon you'll see it for yourself.

Well, did he see it?

Also, Jews at the time Jesus was preaching had a limited idea of God. If God is truly infinite, truly so great as to be beyond our understanding, why limit Him to a voice booming from the sky? The Jews at the time did just that, and thus announcing "Hey eveyone, I'm God!" would have sounded like "Hey everyone, I'm Yahweh!" which wouldn't have made sense to them. He preferred to reveal His identity to them by his teachings and deeds!

It seems to me that christians came to a 'conclusion' that Jesus is God, because Jesus didn't explicitly state it. Which makes the theory quite likely.

This just goes to show I guess that some people simply refuse to believe!

I'm kind of offended by that. I refuse to believe in what? Have you given me irrefutable evidence? The only thing you have is quotes from the bible - and I believe the bible is not accurate. I'll remind you that I can bring forth quotes from the Koran - you won't believe them but it's not because you just 'refuse' to believe, you won't because you have something else to believe in which seems more plausible to you. I'll also remind you that the Koran has lots of stuff about Christianity - while Christianity has nothing on Islam logically because it came before it.

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon, or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come away with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Well, you see, I don't believe he claimed to be God. In fact, I believe he disproved it the first time he talked. Yet again, it's BELIEF.

Sorry about that, I looked up the verses using this site I found, http://www.thenoblequran.com ... which allows looking up passages by number, when searching the web I sometimes saw quotes using #'s so I figured it was okay. Also, I thought the Koran was ordered longest to shortest?

It's okay... I guess those sites show it like that to make it more bible-like, which is totally pointless... I mean, notation's not gonna get anyone interested in Islam. Yes, it's ordered almost from longest to shortest.

Given that Muslims believe that Biblical figures such as Moses and Jesus all preached Islam

No, Abraham did. That's kind of retarded - Moses preached Judaism.

This is slowly turning into a debate... maybe we should stop.

[emmzee]

Look at the Hadith above... does it look like a commentary? It's almost like a story - a conversation. It's Mohammed's teachings, what he said to us. I don't see why the writings of early church fathers would be anywhere near as important - what Jesus himself said is more important.

I do apologize if it seemed like I was implying that Mohammed's writings are not important, certainly Mohammed's words are as important to Muslims as Jesus' are to Christians. (Joseph Smith's to Mormons, Buddha's are to Buddhists, etc.) My only point was that if the Hadiths are sometimes unreliable, it would be difficult to say which are true sayings and which were added later, so in that sense the Hadiths wouldn't be as valuable resource as the Koran.

When you use religion as proof for something, you don't talk about it as fact. I could, right now, bring quotes from the Koran that contradict the above ones. However, I won't because it won't have much of an effect: you don't believe in the Koran.

I never quoted the Bible to try to prove that the Bible is true, since I know that would be just circular reasoning. I was quoting the Bible only to demonstrate that it really does say what I claim it does, in the same way as when a person references things in an essay to note where they got their information from.

The gist of my reasoning behind why the disciples couldn't have just misunderstood Jesus is this: (I am not trying to state this as undeniable fact, but this makes sense to me and I see no clear way around it)
1) Jesus claimed to be God (thats why I was quoting those Bible passages, as evidence of this, not to prove what He said is true just because the Bible claims He said it)
2) Jesus was (at least) a great prophet (claimed by both Christianity and Islam)
3) Therefore Jesus could not have been a liar, or a lunatic
4) So only two options remain: That Jesus really did claim (and was) divine, or the disciples made up these sayings

Soon you'll see it for yourself.
Well, did he see it?

I'm assuming here Jesus was referring to his resurrection. After Jesus died, its recorded The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. (Mark 15:38, also in Matthew) If such a thing did occur, the high priest certainly would have noticed. (The curtain of the temple seperated the "most holy place", so that none other than the high priest could enter, and even he could only enter once a year. Symbolically, tearing it in half represented the removal of the barrier for all to enter God's "most holy place".) So, that's one way he could have "seen it". (We're not told what happened to the high priest specifically.)

It seems to me that christians came to a 'conclusion' that Jesus is God, because Jesus didn't explicitly state it. Which makes the theory quite likely.

Yup, considering that (again, if true) it would be the most incredible thing ever to occur in our world, its not much of a surprise that it took awhile for the disciples to wrap their minds around what had happened.

I'm kind of offended by that. I refuse to believe in what? Have you given me irrefutable evidence? The only thing you have is quotes from the bible - and I believe the bible is not accurate. I'll remind you that I can bring forth quotes from the Koran - you won't believe them but it's not because you just 'refuse' to believe, you won't because you have something else to believe in which seems more plausible to you. I'll also remind you that the Koran has lots of stuff about Christianity - while Christianity has nothing on Islam logically because it came before it.

I was referring not to you but to Judas, since that's who I was talking about in the paragraph and who your question was referring to. Sorry for not making that clear, I did not mean to imply anything about your own beliefs, and again would never expect anyone to believe in Christianity just because "it says so" without any other evidence.

Well, you see, I don't believe he claimed to be God. In fact, I believe he disproved it the first time he talked. Yet again, it's BELIEF.

How did He disprove it the first time He talked? I agree that faith in any religion is belief, since even God's existence is unprovable.

Given that Muslims believe that Biblical figures such as Moses and Jesus all preached Islam
No, Abraham did. That's kind of retarded - Moses preached Judaism.

I see your point ... though maybe they meant that, since in Islam Moses, Jesus, and many others were prophets, that they preached the ideas of Islam? Or its likely that wikipedia is just wrong, its not necessarily the most accurate source for religious info Thats why I was wondering what you thought about the idea of the Koran being "eternal and uncreated"?

This is slowly turning into a debate... maybe we should stop.

Actually, during my last post I was thinking that since this thread has turned into more of a private conversation rather than an open discussion, it may be more appropriate to continue (if you are still interested in continuing, of course) via email?

Again, I do apologize if my comments were offensive in any way, that was certainly not my intent. Being a former atheist/agnostic I usually try to be very sensitive to other beliefs, but I guess sometimes I don't do a very good job.

[Amro]

Actually, during my last post I was thinking that since this thread has turned into more of a private conversation rather than an open discussion, it may be more appropriate to continue (if you are still interested in continuing, of course) via email?

Ok, unless someone else is interested in this.

[Da_Goat]

Well, I'm not necessarily interested, but it's definitely refreshing to see a religious conversation taking place online without either side giving eachother an implied (or literal) middle finger. If I had the time or attention span to read everything, I may have even replied.