All humans are equal but some humans are more equal .....

[dosraider]

Santosh, I've deleted some things in one of your previous post, please don't mix several completely different topics.
THX.

Maybe this needs to be a PM discussion between you and dosraider?

Please, don't say such things. Next he's gonna ask if I have MSN .... *sigh*

[GAMER]

Agree almost 100% with Dogbreath but wanted to add a point that i am pretty annoyed about.

Santhosh: Have you ever been to Australia? Or are you just believing the media AGAIN? There's been maybe 3 instances where Indian students / teachers were beaten up by random thugs... And the only reason you heard about it is because of the REVERSE racism that goes on. If the 3 attacks were on Australian born, blonde, tanned males then the media would not care at all. Australia is a beautiful country that celebrates multiculturalism. There are so many students at my university of Muslim faith - none of them get hassled. I'd say there's almost as many girls wearing (i'm not sure how it's spelled) Hijabs, as there are girls in singlets and jeans. So don't randomly discriminate against my country, because i will take offence when your media-driven opinions fall short of being well-informed.

On the topic of airport security - Everytime i have gone through an airport i have been asked to unpack my suitcase, take off my outer layers of clothing, submit to drug and explosives tests and a couple of times i've been frisked. I'm stereotypically "Aussie" looking, and i get checked everytime. Why shouldn't these famous people be checked? I would hope that our Prime Minister was being checked, and i find no disrespect in it.

GAMER

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Look I'm not trying to discriminate Australia for racism as much as Dogbreath is discriminating India for small parts that still follow caste system he got from the media (which you said you agree to 100% btw). We are both discussing that different bad things that are still taking place in the world. My dad worked in Australia and said most of it was good but there were incidents he faced in his own company and on the streets that forced him to retreat back to India and tried for America instead.

And as for me not living in Australia I never did. I lived in U.S. as a kid and if you'd like I can give you a very detailed minute description of every racial abuse I have faced in both private and public school life since I was 7 because I was Indian and how deeply it has scarred me for life. Everything from some white girl saying "Ewww... Hindus" to random bums on the street giving me the finger and telling me to go back to my own country. My mom and I entered a bakery once and two white girls looked at us from head to toe and began giggling uncontrollably and she felt very hurt. She was wearing a traditional Indian dress. Again I stress this. These were very isolated events and majority of our stay was very hospitable and most American people were more kind than even Indians. But sadly these things did still happen. I am not trying to judge an entire country in anyway.

Even now when I visit certain chat rooms there are people who see my name Santhosh and PM me stuff like "Your people belong in a zoo", or "Man you from India?? How you have chat in a shithole place like dat. I saw on news blah blah blah...."

One guy PMed me after seeing "Back to the Start Mario" and was shocked to know I was from India LIVING in India making Flash movies working on computers and such. He kept making one derogatory comment after another he CLAIMED he knew about India from living thousands of Miles away like 'I thought India was some hellhole nutsty country', 'What's the average lifespan of an Indian? How old did your grandfather die? At 40's?' 'Do Indian children go to school?' You must be super rich to be affording computers." and some too horrible to mention here, while praising his own country like crazy saying 'It was so perfect, it's actually boring' He said he was from Canada, and India should try to beocme more like that instead of being a poverty stricken mess. He was also condemning America btw.

It's all extremely minority of course and most of the people are awesome but this kind of stuff still happens. I am not going to post here anymore because you all just seem to hate me further and gang up on me. I'm sorry we don't live in a perfect world and just protecting our own countries and justifying something that's obviously wrong does not make it any better. It's like Gerorge Bush saying his invasion on the people of Iraq and Afghanistan was a crusade and a means to remove dictatorship tyranny.

The same goes for me as well. I should not be blind to the many flaws India still has, but I have every right to be proud of people like Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda who have rectified it greatly and in a way contributed to the world things like non-violence, Satyagraha, and tolerance to all religions and race. And most important of all... respect to foreigners who visit India! We don't check on Australian or American presidents because more than respect we trust them enough to know their visit was purely on peaceful terms.

[dosraider]

Santhosh, most of the things you said that happened when you were a child also happens between the 'white' children amongst them, children are harsh towards each other, always were and always will be.
Of course it's easy to call you names when you're a stranger, cheap, easy and understandable coming from a child.
Thats where the parents should, *should*, interfere.

Another matter is the things you went through when adults show this kind of despicable manners, there is no excuse for that, and it says much more about who they are then who you are.

But please, please, don't say Australia si and la, or the US si and la, those persons represent a minority, nothing more. Just as the muslim terrorists, they're also a minority.

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Just as the muslim terrorists, they're also a minority.

Yes very very true. But then why are all Muslim names being questioned so much. My friend Basheer Ahmed had his visa rejected twice because of his name and now his agent advices him to change his name to something more Christian or even Hindu. One of his friends did and he got approval. It's extremely offensive

[dosraider]

Yes very very true. But then why are all Muslim names being questioned so much.

Pretty simple to explain, it's a first line of triage, so to speak.
In stead of complaining about those rules complain about the muslim terrorist, they are the cause of this all.
What's more: it's highly probable that's what they aim for.
The more shit in this world the more they like it.

The last thing they want is a stable, peaceful world.
They would deprive themselves of any reason of existing.
Terrorist, extremist groups -(remark: not only muslim ...)- flourish when shit is going on in the world.

[Dogbreath]

Santhosh: From the examples you've given, I've gone through more crap than that because I wore glasses as a child. I had a friend who had a hare lip, and she received all sorts of abuse, sometimes even from immature adults. It's far from a wide-spread hatred of Indian people, it's just cruel children picking on anyone who's different.

I wanted to clarify that I'm not getting some stereotype of your country from a story I read. I have quite a few friends who are recent immigrants from India, once dated a girl who was an immigrant from India, and used to work at a company that was about 50% Indian immigrants. (mostly Gujarati if it makes any difference. Kom cho? Saru che!) I live in a city with about 50,000 Indian immigrants.

I'm also friends with several missionaries who work over there. While I certainly can't claim direct knowledge, I have heard from all of these people the horrors of the caste system, and the systematic dehumanization of millions of people. Also, the complete destitution of the untouchables in the aftermath of the Tsunami was widely spread and highly reported, and universally condemned by human rights organizations. It's by no means some isolated story.

That being said, I'm NOT trying to bash India, or attack your country randomly, I brought up the caste system because everything you've been talking about shows that you believe in and follow it. Sure, you may not like the existing castes, you may even take pride in being a member of the backwards caste, but all your talk of some members of society being more privileged than others is *exactly* what the caste system is all about. It's not about India, it's about your beliefs.

You keep mentioning (and I mostly ignore) the current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Well, that's a topic for a whole 'nother thread, but there's no real need to bring it up as I'm not in any way invoking the ideals of warfare or violence in my argument against your ideas. In fact, I haven't even politically aligned myself for or against said wars in this thread. (and will refrain from doing so, too)

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Yes very very true. But then why are all Muslim names being questioned so much.

Pretty simple to explain, it's a first line of triage, so to speak.
In stead of complaining about those rules complain about the muslim terrorist, they are the cause of this all.
What's more: it's highly probable that's what they aim for.
The more shit in this world the more they like it.

The last thing they want is a stable, peaceful world.
They would deprive themselves of any reason of existing.
Terrorist, extremist groups -(remark: not only muslim ...)- flourish when shit is going on in the world.

If a racist punk from the West does something it means he is bad as an individual and does not involve in the whole country whatsoever. I fully agree with this.

But why does every Muslim in the world (especially from the East) suffer humiliation and be questioned on and on just because some nutcase Bin Laden followers preaching bad Islamic beliefs crashed into the New York towers 8 years ago. Hmmm... doesn't sound fair does it. How'd you like it if it was the other way and people questioned your Christian name and asked if you had links with anyone because some random nut with YOUR name was doing bullshit elsewhere.

Also to Dogbreath. Kids made fun of you because of something you wear like your glasses which you could just take off. Whereas kids made fun of my race and my color which I am born with and cannot change. There is a difference.

Also I don't follow caste system nor do I support it. And yes it IS an isolated incident just as Australians picking on Indian students is as GAMER said. If you come live here for yourself you will understand better perhaps. So many many many schools, colleges, and political leaders helped Tseunami victims irrespective of caste. You are focusing on the extremists again.. the minority as dosraider said.

As for the caste system the government is slowly reducing it gradually but it first needs to hel the former victims of it in the past so the whole country is balanced out again. Kerala reduced it the same way, and now they have no caste system at all and have 100% literacy rate.

I agree there are end number of ignorant villages that still follow castes just as there were end number of ignorant white farmers in America that still wished black people were slaves even into the 1950's and 60's though black people were officially freed in Abraham Lincoln's time. Black boxers were refused their rights to the world titles, and many black artists were oppressed due to sheer jealousy and racism. Even recently the famous actor from Seinfeld Kramer got into problems saying very racist things about black people on some comedy show.

Be it the Caste system, or racism we can't just eradicate anything overnight and some notions by people are altogether impossible to remove. It takes time sometimes generations.

I really appreciate your missionary friends who are helping out but don't patronize us and consider yourselves the only angels helping. Many Indian people are also helping, including some of my own friends. There are over 1 billion people in this land. Every revolution takes it time. We got our own independence from Britishers only 60 years ago. British people and French settlers took advantage of the caste system and made many uneducated Indian people into their personal slaves worsening their conditions until Gandhi freed them... so in a way the West was actually responsible to make the caste system even worse and abusing it further than it already was, making generations of Indian people feel utterly worthless and STILL unable to fully crawl out of the shells cast on them. British people refused to let Indians ride 1st or 2nd class train in their own country. Some even literally made lower Indian caste and untouchable people as stepping stones to get on their coaches, then kicked them away. They used Brahmin brains gave them high salaries and treated every other Indian like my ancestors feel like shit or soldiers in their stupid wars thus making the classes steeper and steeper.

But even AFTER Indian independance in 1948 and Gandhi showing western people the way, did the mentalities of Western government change? Nope!

South Africa was legally following Apartheid until 1994 though it was started in 1948. LEGALLY following it as in the government was supporting it even in major cities not just tiny ignorant towns, until Nelson Mandela... again inspired by Gandhi's works freed his people from the tyranny of white people... till 1994??!!! That's barely 14 years ago!!! It's ridiculous and appalling

[Santhosh CHRiS]

Anywayz I'm through with this thread. I don't want any flame wars started here. The issues we discuss here are extremely deep and all the Dosgames Forum members are very good people at heart and not involved with any form of racism, or hatred for Muslims in any way. Maybe all the shit that happens in this world will make sense someday. Till then I hope I haven't offended anyone here, and if I have I am extremely sorry. I got some serious issues that I need to solve on my own and not drag an entire community or forum along with it. I need to channel all the hatred and racism I faced at a young age into more creative works and not project stereotypical views of what is and what is not right.

Most of us come here for enjoyment and take off our worries from the world and not give ourselves bigger headaches discussing them here as well. So whatever you post I am not going to reply. If you really must say something on this topic please PM me instead.

Thank you.

[CPT Worm]

But why does every Muslim in the world (especially from the East) suffer humiliation and be questioned on and on just because some nutcase Bin Laden followers preaching bad Islamic beliefs crashed into the New York towers 8 years ago. Hmmm... doesn't sound fair does it. How'd you like it if it was the other way and people questioned your Christian name and asked if you had links with anyone because some random nut with YOUR name was doing bullshit elsewhere.

Okay, typically I say, "A few bad apples ruin the basket." However, in this case, I can't say that. There are reasons why Muslim suffer humiliation: the religion is extremely oppressive.

An Afghan bill allowing a husband to starve his wife if she refuses to have sex has been published in the official gazette and become law.

The original bill caused outrage earlier this year, forcing Afghan President Hamid Karzai to withdraw it.

But critics say the amended version of the law remains highly repressive. ...

Gay Iraqi men are being murdered in what appears to be a co-ordinated campaign involving militia forces, the group Human Rights Watch says.

It says hundreds of gay men have been targeted and killed in Iraq since 2004.

These are just two examples in the news in THE PAST 24 HOURS. I can dig deeper, but I'm not in the mood.
The first shows that a majority of the a Muslim country supports a law allowing men to starve their wives if they refuse sex. Not a small sect, but AN ENTIRE COUNTRY. But, it's not their fault...the Qu'ran kinda makes it okay.
The second shows that gay men are being attacked for their sexual orientation. That happens everywhere, but in Iraq, some of these murders are honor killings, which means the family is killing the man to protect the family's good public name.

Also to Dogbreath. Kids made fun of you because of something you wear like your glasses which you could just take off. Whereas kids made fun of my race and my color which I am born with and cannot change. There is a difference.

Not if he wants to see.
I've been in places where I'm the ethnic minority, and trust me, being a white male is not some sort of shield that protects me from insults.

As for the caste system the government is slowly reducing it gradually but it first needs to hel the former victims of it in the past so the whole country is balanced out again.

The US government does the same thing with Amerindians; it "Helps" them. Indian Reservations are hives of illiteracy, alcoholism, and sexual violence. In this case, the more you help a group, the more you hurt them.

I agree there are end number of ignorant villages that still follow castes just as there were end number of ignorant white farmers in America that still wished black people were slaves even into the 1950's and 60's though black people were officially freed in Abraham Lincoln's time. Black boxers were refused their rights to the world titles, and many black artists were oppressed due to sheer jealousy and racism. Even recently the famous actor from Seinfeld Kramer got into problems saying very racist things about black people on some comedy show.

You forget that the American Civil War was a very bitter and injuring conflict that took decades to heal. And being raised in a culture where whites were taught that black people were inferior means that oppression is going to keep happening. However, Michael Richards (Kramer) got the wrong end of the stick; those people were being assholes. "It's not racism if it's against white people." That's a bullshit double-standard.

Be it the Caste system, or racism we can't just eradicate anything overnight and some notions by people are altogether impossible to remove. It takes time sometimes generations.

Yeah, remember that before criticizing American cultural values. Looks like India has another 40 years at least.

But even AFTER Indian independance in 1948 and Gandhi showing western people the way, did the mentalities of Western government change? Nope!

Okay, pulling the Gandhi card is not cool. He did influence Martin Luther King, Jr. with the American civil rights movement in '50s and '60s. But "showing western people the way?" Something about that statement bothers me. "Westernization is bad!" and "Listen to Gandhi!" Hmm...seems kind of hypocritical to me.

South Africa was legally following Apartheid until 1994 though it was started in 1948. LEGALLY following it as in the government was supporting it even in major cities not just tiny ignorant towns, until Nelson Mandela... again inspired by Gandhi's works freed his people from the tyranny of white people... till 1994??!!! That's barely 14 years ago!!! It's ridiculous and appalling

Yeah, it was a bad time. Most nations condemned it in the '80s, but before then, no one really knew about the conditions in South Africa. Sure, it had come up before in the UN, but the common person didn't have a clue.

Of course, after the apartheid system, unemployment has risen significantly. I'm not saying I promote ethnic-base discrimination (I don't), but not everything is an absolute wrong.

[Dogbreath]

Hmmm, Santhosh, I wouldn't group "the west" and "the British empire" so easily.

The USA (government, corporations, and people) sends hundreds of billions of $$ of financial, medical, logistical, and personal aid to India every year. U.S. corporations employ millions of Indians every year. U.S. schools educate millions of Indians every year. Hundreds of thousands of U.S. missionaries work in India every year.

The U.S.A. has never been at war with India, never occupied India, never exploited India. We've been nothing but good and generous allies since our inception. We had nothing to do with the British occupation of India, or the Apartheid. Actually, the first act the U.S. congress was to declare war against the British Empire!

I'm glad you've now realized that the caste system is a problem, but again, you missed my point. I'm not mentioning the caste system to get into some national pissing contest (which you seem to want to turn this into), I mention it because it lines up with your own belief in the privileged elite. And you've still yet to answer that. You mention racism as if it's something *I* endorse, which is sort of ridiculous, as nothing I've said even indicates that. (and I personally think it's horrible) Yet you seem to be all for institutionalized classes.

So answer it: how can you reconcile your own belief that some people should be treated better/worse than others legally with your dislike of the caste?

Just answer that. Please.

A bit of a side note, Worm covered it nicely, but: my eyes are very much a part of who I am. Actually, there are far more genes that go into how my eyes work than go into skin color. And changing the way my eyes work (via Lasik surgery, for example) is a far more complicated and expensive thing than, say, bleaching or dying my skin. Or changing my name. So I think it is comparable - not just "take off your glasses!" (I'd run into things if I did, though now that I'm an adult I can wear contacts. Couldn't as a kid, though, they'd have damaged my eyes)