intelligent

Amro · Post by **Amro** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:44 am

first i must say to amro very relavent avatar for the talk about nothing.

Uhh, what? What does Mustang have to do with "nothing"?

Also, what does my avatar have to do with my posts? And you might want to take a look at yours.

second, dont say this explaination is stupid because it does make sense. life, universe and everything is all th imagination of some other person, and when one dies it is that person waking up from a dream. now this continues with the person who dreamed life (eg. my life is the dream of daniels life and daniels life is the dream of...ect). this is an endless loop. another way to think of it is back to my "the sims" post about how god gets bored and stuff like that, but think of it more like habbo hotel, an internet hangout where people alll over can talk and make friends. this is what im talking about. cross some ideas together and you get: a person goes to sleep and dreams (logging on) and become an overseer (god) creates a landscape (biulds) and watches life.

And who created this elaborate system?

Also, you're thinking of God as a human being, getting "bored". That makes no sense at all.

Post by **emmzee** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:16 pm

Amro, I took a closer look at the "Did an Eclipse cause the sun to darken?" page. The event in question is how during the crucifixion "darkness came over the whole land" (in Mt, Mk & Lk's gospels). At first when I glanced over the page it looked fairly convincing; then I noticed the major flaw. Generally Jesus' death is placed in the year 33AD. (I'd agree with that dating; some say 30AD but which of these is correct isn't important for the point I'm making here.) The eclipse referred to on that page occurred (according to the author) on "June 21st, 38AD". I have never heard or seen it suggested by anyone, anywhere, that Jesus died in 38AD. As just one argument against the 38AD dating, Jesus was crucified during the reign of Pontius Pilate who ruled from 26-36AD, which rules out this theory immediately. As an aside, Miller has done some work on one of the references to this darkness outside of the Bible here:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jrthal.html

cyb3r.god3 wrote:dont say this explaination is stupid because it does make sense

There's a difference between making sense and being real. The idea is not a unique one, as anyone has seen The Matrix (or the awful sequels) can tell you. However, the theory is entirely ad hoc, meaning that it is possible but there is no reason to believe it. Amro makes a good point: The system in Habbo Hotel was designed and created by someone.

Could this all be a dream? We could say, in a sense, that we are all part of God's "dream" ... that out of the mind of God we were created and continue to exist. But that terminology seems to cheapen humanity and lessen our intrinsic value, so I don't really like that sort of wording. The point being that in order to have a "dream" you need a "dreamer". Saying it's in an "endless loop" doesn't solve anything.

Amro · Post by **Amro** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:38 pm

The eclipse referred to on that page occurred (according to the author) on "June 21st, 38AD"

That's not what's relevant.

An eclipse is only possible two weeks after a full moon.

In order for Jesus to be crucified during an eclipse, he would have to be in custody for more then one week.

Question remains if he was seized during a full moon. Is it stated elsewhere in the bible?

Could this all be a dream?

There's actually a serious book on the issue, something about all of our existence being something like the Matrix created by God (although more spiritual rather than technological, as the technological matrix would require us to have physical bodies). I didn't pay serious attention to it because it didn't make much sense. I can't find the link anymore.

Post by **emmzee** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:44 pm

Question remains if he was seized during a full moon. Is it stated elsewhere in the bible?

Historian Julius Africanus (who lived in the 3rd century) comments: (this was in the article I linked to before btw)
"This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as it appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse occur when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun?"
This is important for several reasons. Firstly, Thallus was a Roman historian (ie not Christian) who wrote approximately 50AD-100AD, though his works have been lost. This reference is one of the verifications outside of the Bible that the darkness really occured. Secondly, Julius Africanus explains exactly why an eclipse could not have occurred as the author of the site linked above suggests.

The author of the eclipse article seems to assume that because the priests didn't want to have Jesus crucified during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, that He was crucified afterwards. But that has (like the 38AD dating of His crucifixion) never been the belief of the church; Jesus was in fact crucified the day before the Feast would have begun. Namely, on Passover. There reason He happened to be crucified then was (theologically speaking) as a replacement to the passover lamb which used to be sacrificed on that day; Jesus being the final and permanent Passover sacrifice. (The Pharisees of course would not have seen it that way!) The idea that Jesus sat around for a week before being crucified therefore makes no sense, and has never been suggested by anyone in history (AFAIK) for these reasons.

(So, to answer the question directly: Passover always falls on a full moon. So yes! Therefore there couldn't have been an eclipse; I guess the eclipse article author came up with his scheme because he believed the darkness must be an eclipse and therefore had to move not only the day but also the year Jesus was crucified to make it fit.)

Anyways, as expected, this conversation has gone off on an esoteric tangent. I'd rather keep this thread to issues that everyone can participate in.

Amro · Post by **Amro** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:19 am

emmzee, you haven't answered your question.

Question for discussion (For everyone!): Would you say that it would be better if God exists than if God doesn't exist? Why or why not?

AdamN · Post by **AdamN** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:07 am

What emmzee is trying to say is that a moon has a life cycle, from New Moon to New Moon. Jesus was crucified on a day without a moon, however the next day it was a full moon. Full Moon is New Moon, Last Day is No Moon.
So in all terms he was crucified at the end\start of an Equinox.

cyb3r.god3 · Post by **cyb3r.god3** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:34 am

Amro wrote:
first i must say to amro very relavent avatar for the talk about nothing.
Uhh, what? What does Mustang have to do with "nothing"?

Also, what does my avatar have to do with my posts? And you might want to take a look at yours.

second, dont say this explaination is stupid because it does make sense. life, universe and everything is all th imagination of some other person, and when one dies it is that person waking up from a dream. now this continues with the person who dreamed life (eg. my life is the dream of daniels life and daniels life is the dream of...ect). this is an endless loop. another way to think of it is back to my "the sims" post about how god gets bored and stuff like that, but think of it more like habbo hotel, an internet hangout where people alll over can talk and make friends. this is what im talking about. cross some ideas together and you get: a person goes to sleep and dreams (logging on) and become an overseer (god) creates a landscape (biulds) and watches life.
And who created this elaborate system?

Also, you're thinking of God as a human being, getting "bored". That makes no sense at all.

the law of alchemy that something cant be created out of nothing but something of equal value must be presented.

and think about it, life is but the imagination of a person into a dream. which is constantly zooming out, know what i mean.

Amro · Post by **Amro** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:28 am

the law of alchemy that something cant be created out of nothing but something of equal value must be presented.

It's a Manga. It's not real. My avatar is a picture of Roy about to blow someone up, by the way. I don't have a picture of an alchemy book there. I also meant to ask why you think I'm talking about nothing (you're the one saying this is all a dream).

And you still haven't said anything about why my avatar has anything to do with this.

and think about it, life is but the imagination of a person into a dream

Life may be just the imagination of a person in a dream. Not is. There's nothing to even suggest it, and I've never heard stuff like this before the Matrix came out. You wanted an intelligent conversation, give actual arguments instead of just "think about it" (by the way, I'm thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense).

which is constantly zooming out, know what i mean.

No, I don't.

GAMER · Post by **GAMER** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:13 am

Amro. You're an arse. K thx.

Amro wrote:I've never heard stuff like this before the Matrix came out.

That's quite possibly because no-one enters into conversations with you because of your arrogance.

GAMER

Amro · Post by **Amro** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:17 am

Thank you for your charming words, GAMER. Apparently I am no longer allowed to share my opinions, yet people are allowed to insult me.

I'm out of this.

Post by **Dogbreath** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:30 am

Life may be just the imagination of a person in a dream. Not is. There's nothing to even suggest it, and I've never heard stuff like this before the Matrix came out. You wanted an intelligent conversation, give actual arguments instead of just "think about it" (by the way, I'm thinking about it, and it doesn't make sense).

This was actually the biggest heresy that the church faced in the 1st century. There was a sect of people known as the Gnostics, who believed that the world and all material things were an illusion created by Satan to keep people from being in true communion with God. Therefore, all things material were "evil", and one should only focus on the spiritual things. Needless to say, it was an extremely spiritualistic and transcendual cult, and gained wide popularity, especially because of it's lax morality. (If life is just a dream, what's wrong with screwing around all the time, and a couple drunken orgies here and there?)

The gospel of John was written specifically to debunk this false doctrine. Read it, and you'll understand the undertones of "the word become flesh" and the importance of "water into wine", an idea of the old creation being transformed into the new, and that Jesus was in fact actually human as well as God, not just a spirit. Also, the letters of John, the letter of James, the letter of Jude, and the book of Revelation all focus to various degrees on debunking this idea.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get too involved - emmzee can doubtless tell you more about it - but seeing as you know so little of basic Christian doctrine and church history, maybe it's not wise for you to be so insulting and arrogant?

Post by **Larry Laffer** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:38 pm

DAMMIT Gamer! Scaring other people is MY job :Angry: !

Amro · Post by **Amro** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:18 pm

Anyway, I'm not trying to get too involved - emmzee can doubtless tell you more about it - but seeing as you know so little of basic Christian doctrine and church history, maybe it's not wise for you to be so insulting and arrogant?

What I said has nothing to do with christian doctrine or church history. I didn't mean to insult anyone. If that's what you all think, then I'm outta here.

Post by **Larry Laffer** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:33 pm

Oh ignore Gamer! It must be that time of the month!

GAMER · Post by **GAMER** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:13 pm

Amro : Don't generalise if you don't know enough about things to do so...That's all Doggy and I were saying. Plus, if you want to leave at the first sign of conflict...you are hardly in a state to be having an "intelligent" conversation. I am at an opposition of Emmzee and Doggy, but we seem to get on well enough, without argument, whilst learning about each others beleifs. It isn't terribly hard to do.

Larry : If this was a physical conversation I would have punched your pre-pubescent face in. NEVER blame my OPINIONS on my physical state, and don't dismiss someones opinion for that same reason. I was ANGRY, not MENSTRUATING.

GAMER

Amro · Post by **Amro** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:28 pm

Amro : Don't generalise if you don't know enough about things to do so...

There's a reason why I'm asking these questions. It's so that I do know enough. If you don't want to share, fine by me, I'll find someone else to learn from. I find that people are more willing to give details when confronted with an opposing view.

Plus, if you want to leave at the first sign of conflict...you are hardly in a state to be having an "intelligent" conversation.

I had a bad day and a toothache when I made that earlier post, not sure why I said that. As for the post about 'giving' up, I said "I didn't mean to insult anyone. If that's what you all think, then I'm outta here.". Bad wording. I meant if you guys still think I deliberately meant to insult. I did not want to argue and possibly escalate things to a flamewar.

I am at an opposition of Emmzee and Doggy, but we seem to get on well enough, without argument, whilst learning about each others beleifs. It isn't terribly hard to do.

As I said earlier, I had a bad day and should not have posted in that state as you said. Hell, I had trouble recognizing DB's quote as mine. I apologize- I didn't mean to insult anyone. I usually have trouble finding the proper words to convey my thoughts, add to that a bad state of mind and you get a stupid post like that.

Well I hope things get back on topic after this.

Post by **Larry Laffer** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:52 pm

Damn! Chill out Gamer! No need to go ballistic over a bloody joke! If you're upset try to keep it out of the forum darnit!

GAMER · Post by **GAMER** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:56 pm

Amro : We want to share, and learn about you aswell...we just don't want arrogance and crankiness. All that aside now, k?

Larry : If you're an idiot, try to keep that out of the forum. I had valid reasons to be annoyed. I hate when men dismiss womens opinions because of menstruation. That's just stupid and immature.

GAMER

Post by **CPT Worm** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:18 am

Grow up, people. Let's get back to the topic. Seriously.

(and no, saying anything like, "Yeah, let's get back on topic," or "Worm's right!" is NOT on topic and will be met with harsh consequences.)

Post by **Larry Laffer** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:40 am

BOT: I wanna know why do you think pople dismiss others religions as fast as this [snaps fingers]?