intelligent

NeonAmd64 · Post by **NeonAmd64** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:13 am

About emmzee:

emmzee:
I am a religious studies major so that helps

This brought memories. I think most of you can't remember the debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Ahmed Deedat.
It was really a hot debate. Anyway that was in old days.

Julie124, I am totally with you but calm down.

Here is my analysis about what you wrote:

About Death:
If we know the truth not only about the life in here but also the life after death, then it will be different,isn't it?

For example, if we know that they went to heaven then we will be happy for them because they are happy there but we don’t know where they went after death.

About life:
Every person in this world [no one is excepted] is going to sleep in the belly of the earth [physically]. That's what I consider.
And this is not the most important. The most important thing is how ,why and where are we going to die?
So, it is only a work we do in this life and we had the decision for our destiny. Of course, we all know that the ability is given to us is by God. [All the religions are pointing to "with the help of God" or "God will help us"]

Now, I am sticking to science to findout what is the truth behind everything and I found many things.

Post by **emmzee** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:03 am

julie124 wrote:the reasons I don't believe in God is because why is there starving children in the world? why is so many people dying of cancer when they take wicket care of themselves and someone who smokes for wbout 50 years can live until their 100? why are small children dying and then you see 100 year old women and men walking around rude as hell? why is Isreal the chosen land when all is going on over there is fighting? why do god let terrist attack and kill good people? why do rapist get to live to an old age and someone good dyes at 18? I can keep going on and on... make no wonder a lot of young people don't believe in the almighty "God" he shows us no sign of him being real, all I see is suffering and pain.

Thanks for joining in the discussion Julie. Always is good to hear other's opinions on the issues.

The "argument from evil" or "problem of pain" is without a doubt the best argument against God. In a debate between William Lane Craig and Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, Armstrong (the atheist) eventually (after Craig gives his rebuttals to Armstrong's arguments) uses examples of evil as his only argument! (Since Craig has rebutted all his others!)

I could try to comment on these examples of evil in the world, but ultimately there's no way to "explain" all evil. It's painful, and we (quite rightly) dislike pain. Any discussion of this type will necessarily be emotional. I mean we could say for "why is there starving children in the world?" that one reason is because people are greedy. There's more than enough food in the world to keep people fed, we just haven't made a habit of sharing it. Stuff like that. It's reasonable and logical, but that doesn't make problems like this any easier.

One thing to consider: What do we gain by removing God from the "pain" equation? Brian McLaren puts it this way: "But what is one left with, having removed the God-factor from the equation? Now, the suffering is no less tragic. There is no hope of being rendered meaningful or transcendent, redemptive or redeemable, since no interventions in this life or reparations in an afterlife are possible. True, there is no God to blame, but is that so great a consolation? Neither is there a God to reach out to for strength and comfort and a higher perspective. There is no God to make meaning of the madness; there is only madness." (Brian McLaren, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Faith-Sel ... /">Finding Faith</a>)

Is that an emotional argument? It is, at least partially, but so is the problem of pain. It is a real problem, but without God there is not even a hope of a solution.

NeonAmd64 · Post by **NeonAmd64** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:44 pm

In all case, I am talking too much..I am sorry.

if you don't want to read.. ignorent is a best solution.

Brian McLaren said that “There is only madness”..Ok I totally agree.

What I know is that madness didn't come by it self, though. So, there are reasons but people aren’t thinking about the reasons that brought the madness here.
I think that the one should be blamed is people [and not all of them but the group that is responsible for it]. A human being has the ability to walk, think, imagine and do any activity that he/she wants.
But... there is a condition here which is stating “I shouldn't be the responsible for the madness. I should be a solution for the madness”

For example,
1-If you don't know me [well] and don’t want to listen to me.

2-And I started flame in every post in this forum for no reason.
3-And you shut my mouth forever.
Then, I will become purely mad.

[But in this forum I found it different. So that's why I am here.[special thank to dosraider who I always remembering him every time I sign in]]

Anyway, I think that every person in this life should be responsible towards him self and towards others. Otherwise, madness will be there. event if people were greedy or no.
And if we sensed the madness we should took the responsisbility to control it before it is too late.

Look, if I give a piece of cake to someone[for helping him or peace or love], I won't be waiting for a fight. And if someone fought me, I wouldn’t change my state [which I came for love or helping others or peace]. I should be patient because anger is evil. [that is all I know from people]

Tragedy is part of all things we have in this life, but the level of tragedy has the level of effect on us.

GAMER · Post by **GAMER** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:46 am

Okay...maybe i'm slow...but...i didn't understand a word you just said. All i got out of it was - "treat people good" ?

GAMER

Post by **emmzee** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:01 am

Yea I'm a bit confused by his post as well ... but it seems like "I think that every person in this life should be responsible towards him self and towards others" Kinda captures the essence of the post. The idea is, I think, that all we need to do is be nice to eachother and everything will turn out okay.

Jesus actually preached something similar. When a religious guy asked him what the most important commandment(s) is/are, he answered "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."

The problem is that humanity has been trying this (saving ourselves by our own willpower) for thousands of years and it hasn't worked. Is the world today any better than it used to be? In some senses yes, but most cases no. North Korea just (supposedly) launched a nuclear missle test. If true, that's another nation with the ability to destroy half the world.

What I'm getting at is we can't do it alone. It may be tough on our pride to admit that, but I think it's true nonetheless.

julie124 · Post by **julie124** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:32 am

I was just wondering of an example where lately "god" has shown exsistence or even a little good.. anyone got an example?

Post by **CPT Worm** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:35 am

He does so many things it's hard to give you an example. He is constantly working in the hearts of those who truly accept Him. We are not puppets of God; we listen to Him for guidance and strength.

Post by **Larry Laffer** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:08 pm

Ok so I'll join this...
Tell me why should I believe IN God? I believe there is something beyond our imagination, but I don't believe IN IT!
Why should I believe in God, any God? I just think of all the crimes commited in the name of A god. Think of the old Greek wars. Think of the Holy Wars. Think of the Wich Hunts. Think of the nowadays exorcisations. Why should I believe in a God in whose name so many people died? Think of the Jihad. Think of the Night of St. Bartolomeu. If God truly exists why did HE let all these slaughters even exist? Even HE orders: "DO NOT KILL".
I understand(or at least I believe I understand) that religion is a lot about helping others and turning the other cheek but why? Why should I believe that there is afterlife? Why should I spend a large portion of my life praying? I'm not the kind of guy that passes past a beggar and says "Away from me you bumb!" I'm not like that, I DO help people less fortunate than me but I don't do it because my religion states this way!
One must truly wonder out of all the religions in the world what is the true one? Or is there a true one?

cyb3r.god3 · Post by **cyb3r.god3** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:27 pm

thats the kind of thing that im saying about contradictions people kill in the name of god but god command thou shalt not kill as you just said. but there are those contradictions in the bible aswell

GAMER · Post by **GAMER** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:07 am

Larry: That's sort of my stance. I live by Christian rule...but don't beleive. I think God will forgive us if He exists. If He doesn't, like i said, I'd rather be in hell with the other people that live like me.

gAMER

Post by **CPT Worm** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:39 am

Actually, Hell doesn't exist. It's either Heaven or Death.

cyb3r.god3 · Post by **cyb3r.god3** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:53 am

according to my friend who acually IS haunted death is like a dream. the reason i know he is haunted ive seen it happen, there is a very distinct difference in the way he looks

side note, introduce yourself topic has 666 posts

NeonAmd64 · Post by **NeonAmd64** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:45 am

Ok... I will rewrite it in a simple way but not now....
let's have a time to think of God..

When there is no existence for God ... then
What does God mean?
I think this is a good question that we should find an answer for.

I will start with my self:

My idea about God is that "no limition for anything"

Like for example if we deal with love then God had the unlimited love.
When we deal with hate and anger then God had the unlimited hate & anger.

Remember, we make Love as first priority and also God makes Love as a first priority as well.

So, what about you all...

Gamer_V · Post by **Gamer_V** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:01 am

alright this is for intelligent converstaions

This is when I stopped reading. Please.

Anyway, I was raised catholic but I'm not that fond of religion. It just causes a lot of war. It's not religion that's bad, after all, it gives people all over the world hope, which is a good thing, but organised religion caused and is causing a lot of problems. Wars and stuff. I'm leaving open for discusssion whether He\She\It exists, or not, but I respect what people believe as long as they respect other people's believes.

cyb3r.god3 · Post by **cyb3r.god3** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:23 am

in the words of dustin hoffman in shpere "im athiest but im flexible" i went to a catholic primary and secondary school i refuse to go to catholic schools during VCE because RE

is compulsory and doesnt count towards VCE (VCE are the hardcore exams that make your future to those who dont know) and what ive found out is that heaven evolves from the best place where its fun fun fun all the time to a more meaningful places to do with emotions, it was during this transition when i made my theroy. and i agree to gamer_v to respecting other religions i do that to. but i have things against catholic schools, what theyre saying to children about how heaven is where all your friends and toys are to this emotion thing (yeh i knida fell asleep in class while talking about this so thats all i remeber

Post by **Larry Laffer** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:04 am

Mr. Worm wrote:Actually, Hell doesn't exist. It's either Heaven or Death.

What do you mean? It's either a land of eternal doing-nothingess or death?
Also: Gamer you sinner!

But I still don't know: Why believe in ANY "God"?

Post by **emmzee** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:05 am

Larry, I think you've hit on a good place to start when taking about spiritual questions: Does God exist? Peter Kreeft lists 20 reasons why here: (Note that Kreeft is a philosopher so some parts might use technical language.)
<a href="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/ ... ce.htm">20 Reasons for God's Existence</a>
Some of course are better than others; if you'd rather not read through them all, I think #6 (The Kalam/Cosmological Argument) is pretty much good enough on its own. I wrote my own post about it here:
http://www.whyfaith.com/2006/09/16/the- ... -argument/
There's plenty of other good articles on Kreeft's site, such as <a href="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/suffering.htm">What is God's Answer to Human Suffering?</a>

Also, we need to be careful, when discussing religions, to seperate the faith from the followers (or, oftentimes, the superficial followers). For example, a police officer is called to uphold the law and act in a morally responsible manner to preserve justice. Now, we know that many police officers do not always act morally. Imagine you see a police officer stealing or beating up people for fun. Should we conclude the whole idea of having police is wrong? No, only that some people who wear the uniform of an officer don't fit the definition of an officer, and therefore are not real police officers even if they give themselves the title. So too with faith. Christians are still "sinners" and make mistakes. Even if some Christians (hundreds of years after Jesus' death, mind you) acted in an unchristianly fashion (that's an understatement), that cannot be the basis for making judgements about whether Christianity is true or not. You have to look at Jesus' teaching to see if such acts are justified, and you'll see that they aren't. For the sake of comparison, in Islam (not to get off on too much of a tangent here) when you look at the Qur'an, it does preach violence. Less so in the earlier Surahs (chapters) but more so in the later ones. Muhammad himself led raids and preached "conversion by the sword". This doesn't mean all Muslims act in that way, most are quite peaceful people nowadays. But that is what Islam really teaches.

Ultimately it's possible that one religion is the truth (or at least more true than any others), or that they are all wrong, but not possible that all are equally right since they teach different things. The only way to know for sure is to investigate it for yourself.

GAMER · Post by **GAMER** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:18 am

Mr Worm: Christadelphian?? What "brand" of religion are you?

Emmzee: Do you beleive in a "hell"...or "eternal life vs death at the time of the return"...or something else?

Anyone else: What happens when you die?

Haha, i found my opinion on the last Religion thread...I was Christian.

GAMER

Post by **Larry Laffer** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:37 am

GAMER wrote: Anyone else: What happens when you die?

I still wonder about that. I prefer to believe that you just die. Nothing more, no afterlife, no haunting, no recognition of being dead, no nothing!

Post by **emmzee** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:31 pm

GAMER wrote:Emmzee: Do you beleive in a "hell"...or "eternal life vs death at the time of the return"...or something else?

When talking about "heaven" or "hell" its hard to go into much detail, only because we don't know a whole lot about what either is 'like' with any certainty. It'd be impossible to describe either accurately from our current perspective, so we should try to remain humble and not try to say too much. (And because it can become an emotionally charged subject.) Even within Christianity there are varying opinions about the fine details of both. I think I can say that, biblically, heaven is eternal fellowship (relationship) with God, and hell is eternal separation from God. If God is love, total separation from Him & his love would be ... hell. The firey imagery used to describe hell is symbolic (okay couldn't help giving my opinion here) but it exists to convey a practical message ... that it is not a good way to go! Such strong language is used because the authors wanted people to appreciate the severity of the decision.

Larry Laffer wrote:I still wonder about that. I prefer to believe that you just die. Nothing more, no afterlife, no haunting, no recognition of being dead, no nothing!

Technically "no nothing" = "something" ...

Anyways, I hope that we can see that if there is no life beyond this life, our lives have no ultimate or objective meaning, only subjective meaning. (Our own happiness becomes logically the greatest goal.) The logical conclusion of this is nihilism (see ex. Nietzsche) but it's impossible to live consistently within that philosophy. (Whether Nietzsche's eventual insanity was a result of his philosophy can never be known for sure.) For a fuller discussion of this see, for example:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/ ... l">Atheism and Death: Why the atheist must face death with despair</a>
This doesn't prove atheism is wrong, but only the logical outcomes. So what would the reasons be to prefer the death is the end?

Larry (and others), I was wondering if you had a chance to check out the "<a href="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/ ... ce.htm">20 reasons</a>" list I posted earlier, (or my <a href="http://www.whyfaith.com/2006/09/16/the- ... /">shorter post</a> if the former link is too long) and if so what you thought of it?